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New Canon '5D' 12.MP FF! Possible leak / maybe rumor...

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ranplett
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Posted Tue Aug 9, 2005 12:43PM
Hey all, this has been all over the DPReview and Fred Miranda Forums this morning:

http://alex.netfun.ro/Canon5D-specs.pdf

Some people did some great detective work, determining that the PDF was authored by a guy named Jim Bowes. They googled him and found some very interesting information that seems to lift this out of the rumor mill.

Jim Bowes asking about typography for large international Client

Jim Bowes Profile

Cayenne Communications (site is down?) Apparently, they worked on the ad campaign for the Canon 20D.

According to the PDF, some of the possible and interesting features are:
• 12.8 MP full frame sensor (24-70/2.8L here we come!!!)
• spot meter
• ISO 50 in ISO expansion
• 2.5 inch LCD
• flash sync only 1/200 sec (???)
• 3 fps (seems low)
• New Canon 430EX Speedlite

This looks like the 'tweener' (between semi-pro and pro models) camera that has been discussed a lot in the last few years ($3000 USD). If this is accurate, then it looks like it will be a powerful camera with ultra low noise for a decent price. The PDF also mentions a 1d mk II 'N' which looks to be a Nikon D2X killer.

IMO, the photo looks fake.

(Edited on 2005-08-09 12:46:59 by ranplett)
Sirimo
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Posted Tue Aug 9, 2005 12:55PM
Very interesting indeed !
photographerc
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Posted Tue Aug 9, 2005 2:20PM
Looks like Canon's answer to the Nikon D2x. Looks like it's going to be slightly cheaper too.

But the picture does look really, really fake and for some reason there's only a shot of the back of the camera on 3 of the 4 pages.

(Edited on 2005-08-09 14:22:14 by photographerc)
ranplett
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Posted Tue Aug 9, 2005 2:55PM
I'm gonna wager that it's Canon's answer to Nikon's D200 (if it exists). I think the new 1d2 'N' will compete with the D2X (weather sealing, hardcore build, etc.)

I'm guessing the new D200 (speculation) will have the same noisy Sony 12mp APSc sized sensor as the D2X.

So we should see a 5D 12.8 MP FF sensor vs. the D200 12 MP 1.5x sensor, and the 1D2 'N' 12.8 MP FF sensor vs. the D2X 12 MP 1.5x sensor.

The result should be Canon dominating Nikon in terms of resolution, sharpness, detail, dynamic range, and ultra-low noise.

Of course this is all speculation. I'm just hoping that a 24-70/2.8L will be a more useful range on cheaper DSLRs!
sandoclr
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Posted Tue Aug 9, 2005 4:04PM
What's the 1d2 'n'?. When is this supposed to come out?


(Edited on 2005-08-09 16:05:26 by sandoclr)
ericsphotography
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Posted Tue Aug 9, 2005 4:55PM
So far the whole "leak" seams to be a hoax.
ranplett
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Posted Tue Aug 9, 2005 5:45PM
So far the whole "leak" seams to be a hoax.


Eric, I haven't heard anyone really consider it a hoax after people inspected the meta data of the PDF. In general, people are very optimistic about it. Do you have sources that suggest it's a hoax? If it is a hoax then many people will be disapointed

What's the 1d2 'n'?. When is this supposed to come out?


Hi Sandra, it's purely speculation, but it is rumored to be a 12.8MP FF sensor upgrade (not much else). The reason that it makes sense is two-fold, 1) It competes better with the current Nikon pro P.J. body, and 2) the sensor will be fitted into two bodies (1D2 'N' and 5D) with different marketing segments, which would save on R+D costs, making it much more feasible. It is a rumor, but I'm confident that the peices add up.

What also makes sense is an upgraded, smaller 430EX Speedlite, becuase it seems, PJ, travel photogs and everyone else for that matter all want smaller / lighter. It's these little details that makes it sound more then just a rumor.

Based on what I've read, the 5D will retail for $3000 and the 1d2n for $5000.

The 1D mkII is 1.5 years old now, and the product life cycle was an upgrade every two years. However, Canon didn't really have any competition, and now the Nikon D2X is stealing market share.
Atlantagreg
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Posted Tue Aug 9, 2005 7:39PM
Well, it's just a matter of time before they come out with a semi-pro 12MP model. I was kinda thinking they'd continue up the model scale (30D, 40D, etc) and the "40D" would hit that mark two years from now, but it wouldn't surprise me to really see one earlier since they're trying to stay on top.

Only just barely paid off my 10D. $3000 is a bit steep, but it's a goal if istock earns me enough.

I know some people would laugh at me for saying this, but I DO know a few "pros" who make their livings doing photography, and they hate it when Canon makes the higher end models without a built-in flash. A lot of people apparently poopoo built-ins, but the pro guys (and gal) I know who work in the business say the've been stuck out in the field at times when they saw no need to lug around their speedlites, and poof, they needed one, and even a built-in would have been better than nothing. I think Canon needs to reconsider having them in the higher end models.
ranplett
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Posted Tue Aug 9, 2005 8:14PM
Who needs built in flash? Just raise the ISO to 12800 :P

I don't think that there will ever be a 40D because I think that means really bad luck / death or something, based on asian numerology (I don't really know much about it, so forgive my ignorance). But that is the reason that the Canon G3 jumped up to the G5.

Wait 'till February for an upgrade to the 20D (30D?). With Canon, the higher the number, the cheaper the model, hence 300D, 350D, etc. Soon there may be a 3000D ($500?)
picmax
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Posted Tue Aug 9, 2005 8:28PM
Well, if you understand the semidoncudtor industry, you will understand why we can buy a pentium 4 CPu at the price of a pentium less than 10 years ago.

A 12MP chip of APS size will most likely cheaper than a 12MP chip of full frame size because you can make more of the chips from the standard sized wafers. Assume Nikon will go to CMOS. The cost structure would be very similar. The nikon cameras will probally always have more/better features than the Canon at the same or lower price because they can save money from the imager chip. The lens will also be cheaper to make for APS sized sensors. There is really not much need to go to full frame except for the wide angle need. However most PJ or sports shooter don't need ultra wide. The crop factor helps greatly the nature shooter and sports shooter. It does allow higher pixel density without reducing the pixel size too much. That could be benifical for noise. The question is how much.

$3000 camera is also out of reach for most of the people. Personal computer becomes commodity because of its price. The final winner will be the one that can reach much wider masses.
Atlantagreg
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Posted Tue Aug 9, 2005 9:47PM

I don't think that there will ever be a 40D because I think that means really bad luck / death or something, based on asian numerology (I don't really know much about it, so forgive my ignorance). But that is the reason that the Canon G3 jumped up to the G5.


Hmmmm.. I remember reading that this is the reason Canon skipped the "4" in the G-series, and there was no "G4" model. That 4 sounds like "death" in some Asian languages (though not sure what fourTY would mean).
ranplett
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Posted Tue Aug 9, 2005 9:58PM
Hi Picmax,

A 12MP chip of APS size will most likely cheaper than a 12MP chip of full frame size because you can make more of the chips from the standard sized wafers.


Absolutely! I believe that a 'full frame' sensor actually about 8x more costlier to produce. Makes me wonder how Nikon can charge $5000 for the D2X.

Assume Nikon will go to CMOS.


The Nikon D2X has a CMOS sensor produced by Sony.

The nikon cameras will probally always have more/better features than the Canon at the same or lower price because they can save money from the imager chip.


I doubt it. It's a matter of marketing and research & development. I'm certain that every Canon body has better features then the Nikon equivelant. They have more market share, therefore, more money. Complacency could be a problem though.

The lens will also be cheaper to make for APS sized sensors.


I agree, hence the APSc sized sensors are here to stay.

There is really not much need to go to full frame except for the wide angle need. However most PJ or sports shooter don't need ultra wide. The crop factor helps greatly the nature shooter and sports shooter. It does allow higher pixel density without reducing the pixel size too much. That could be benifical for noise. The question is how much.


We'll soon see. A 24-70mm 2.8L is my dream lens, the range isn't so good on a 1.6x crop. A lot of people want quality over smaller / lighter gear, and vice versa. I believe each format will have it's annoyances. The larger sensor is more demanding on the lens, but with APS optimized lenses, they will just be scaled down, showing similar problems.

Think about it this way: if Canon produced a high end, full frame body with a sensor of the same pixel pitch as the D2X, then it would be around 27MP. Can you say 'medium format'? Cram any more pixels / photosites in their and you have point & shoot image quality. I'd rather have 16.7MP and a clean image at ISO 1600.

$3000 camera is also out of reach for most of the people. Personal computer becomes commodity because of its price. The final winner will be the one that can reach much wider masses.


Again, we'll see. A lot of people here on this site will probably pick one up. Several photogs here own a 1Ds II, 1D II, or a D2X. This is a place where quality is highly regarded. $3000 is a niche market, just like a $8000 body. When 35mm digital bodies rival medium format film, you bet there will be a market.

I think they do their homework and determine whether or not a $3000 body will sell. If it wouldn't, then they won't waste their time.

The debate could last years, but the proof is in the pudding. One thing is for sure, that we can benefit from the competition by the camera makers.
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